Tanking tips

[Sevenflow]

Hello everyone

I'm not a VG, but I'd like to ask on my guilds behalf if any experienced tanks can provide some tips on how to best generate and hold aggro on bosses.
We have problems with overaggroing, and while I know it's our duty as DPS not to overaggro, I'd just like to know if there is any "best" way of keeping aggro on a boss (since tank aggro = more DPS). I'd also like to know if the VG should go for any specific stats to help him hold aggro, like if they should toss a little attack/dmg in to the mix.

Thank you very much in advance.

[Jita]

I have limited experiences with the tanking classes in this game. But as an observation it seems like RWs have more in the way of threat generating abilities than VGs. Now I don't know if this changes at higher levels or not, but all of the slowing affects that are frontal cone attacks that RWs have generate threat quickly and can be used to group mobs easily. In comparison for a VG they have knockdowns which are in fact nothing more than attacks, so the assumption could be made that more attack power in this case could mean more threat since burst damage from a dps shows a change in argo.

It would be interesting to see some input on this from high level tanks though, I am very interesting in tanking in this game and will probably change to one of the warrior classes soon.

[Kumo]

Its up to the dps solely to stop generating so much threat, its a blunt answer but there is no other. Any VG/RW or any tank in any game worth their class will be doing their utmost to generate agro and stop their squishies from getting killed.

[Sevenflow]

Jita @ It also seems to me that RW's have an easier time generating threat than VG's, but unfortunately when you get to the high-end raiding, an RW tank just doesn't cut it, they don't have enough defence and HP to tank the higherlevel bosses, at least in my experience.

Kumo @ It just seems to me like VG's aren't capable of generating that much aggro, and aggro isnt just = damage. This may be true for some classes, but other classes have ways of mitigating aggro and tank classes have ways of generating aggro, that aren't related to damage.

[lucas1965]

Jita @ It also seems to me that RW's have an easier time generating threat than VG's, but unfortunately when you get to the high-end raiding, an RW tank just doesn't cut it, they don't have enough defence and HP to tank the higherlevel bosses, at least in my experience.

Kumo @ It just seems to me like VG's aren't capable of generating that much aggro, and aggro isnt just = damage. This may be true for some classes, but other classes have ways of mitigating aggro and tank classes have ways of generating aggro, that aren't related to damage.

Nope you are wrong, Rw can tank well everywhere but SH3 or this is what i have seen till now. The problem with SH3 is that Rw don't have enough skill to regenerate Vigor (only Sixth Sense that negate vigor use for 15 seconds but with 5 minutes cooldown) so without a vocal chat to coordinate the Vigor Heal from the De (that i think have a long cooldown too) it is nearly impossible for a Rw to have enough Vigor to keep dodging the Sh3's Flames for the whole time of the fight

[Shikigami]

Nope you are wrong, Rw can tank well everywhere but SH3 or this is what i have seen till now. The problem with SH3 is that Rw don't have enough skill to regenerate Vigor (only Sixth Sense that negate vigor use for 15 seconds but with 5 minutes cooldown) so without a vocal chat to coordinate the Vigor Heal from the De (that i think have a long cooldown too) it is nearly impossible for a Rw to have enough Vigor to keep dodging the Sh3's Flames for the whole time of the fight

In my opinion, RW seems able to generate more threat than VG, but you will required a VG for higher-end instances. RW can tank SC3 too, with any heal, it just depends on the gears and skills of the user...

[Jita]

In my opinion, RW seems able to generate more threat than VG, but you will required a VG for higher-end instances. RW can tank SC3 too, with any heal, it just depends on the gears and skills of the user...

I had the feeling this was the case. The classes seem to become more defined between 40 and 50 as to what your role really is. So I imagine that after 50 a VG is really more 'tanky' than an RW.

[lucas1965]

In my opinion, RW seems able to generate more threat than VG, but you will required a VG for higher-end instances. RW can tank SC3 too, with any heal, it just depends on the gears and skills of the user...

What are higher-end istances that need Vg as tank? Do you speak about lvl 70 + istances?
Till lvl 65 there isn't any istance where a rw can't tank and i'm specced all dps
Didn't tried any lvl 65 istance yet because there aren't enough active players left on Hare to make a grp lvl 65+
About Sc3 maybe a RW tank specced with all the gear made for tanking purpouse will be able to do it without heal (like --R-- of Tortoise), not my RW for sure because i'm not going to put any attibute points or rune or stone in Physick or stamina and i hardly see what are the needed skills of the user when tanking Sh3, there is only need to dodge his flame attack and nothing more, if you have the vigor it is really simple if you don't have it you are dead, no skills needed to play that encounter

[Sevenflow]

What are higher-end istances that need Vg as tank? Do you speak about lvl 70 + istances?
Till lvl 65 there isn't any istance where a rw can't tank and i'm specced all dps
Didn't tried any lvl 65 istance yet because there aren't enough active players left on Hare to make a grp lvl 65+
About Sc3 maybe a RW tank specced with all the gear made for tanking purpouse will be able to do it without heal (like --R-- of Tortoise), not my RW for sure because i'm not going to put any attibute points or rune or stone in Physick or stamina and i hardly see what are the needed skills of the user when tanking Sh3, there is only need to dodge his flame attack and nothing more, if you have the vigor it is really simple if you don't have it you are dead, no skills needed to play that encounter

I'm not saying you're wrong because I've never seen an RW specced for tanking, but please inform me as to whether you've tanked raidbosses such as the spider boss in pond and dragon boss in serene bay, or bosses in TT. Because for those high-end bosses I don't think an RW will cut it, at least not at lvl 60 which is our current level limit.

[AK47]

What are higher-end istances that need Vg as tank? Do you speak about lvl 70 + istances?
Till lvl 65 there isn't any istance where a rw can't tank and i'm specced all dps
Didn't tried any lvl 65 istance yet because there aren't enough active players left on Hare to make a grp lvl 65+
About Sc3 maybe a RW tank specced with all the gear made for tanking purpouse will be able to do it without heal (like --R-- of Tortoise), not my RW for sure because i'm not going to put any attibute points or rune or stone in Physick or stamina and i hardly see what are the needed skills of the user when tanking Sh3, there is only need to dodge his flame attack and nothing more, if you have the vigor it is really simple if you don't have it you are dead, no skills needed to play that encounter

Shiki was talking about high-end instances. Thunder Test with lvl60 rank2 tali, Insect Village Challenge Instance and Tomb. These are high-end instance.

-R- is in our guild, how can shiki know him less than you do? Actually Shiki's comment was based on comparing my VG (zeus) and -R-.

The only time that RW tank better than VG is when they are both equiped with lvl60 rank3 tali. Before or after, VG tank better than RW.

Attached two of my current stats SS with only VG buff.

[qweazdak]

I know chym, a rw, tanked for TT in the group that finished right after dragon group. But hevwas well geared.

[Skjoldt]

Shiki was talking about high-end instances. Thunder Test with lvl60 rank2 tali, Insect Village Challenge Instance and Tomb. These are high-end instance.

-R- is in our guild, how can shiki know him less than you do? Actually Shiki's comment was based on comparing my VG (zeus) and -R-.

The only time that RW tank better than VG is when they are both equiped with lvl60 rank3 tali. Before or after, VG tank better than RW.

Attached two of my current stats SS with only VG buff.

I see you put all your resistance pts into hold. Would you care to tell me how you distributed your attribute pts? Did you go 50-50 sta/phys?

[Kumo]

Imo there is no definitive tank class till 60+ thats when vg start to become alot tougher and get some good skills.

[potlamic]

back on topic:How does a vg tank can keep agro

1-tank should spike boss alone with tali skills right at start as there tali skills does lots of dmg especially when combining lvl 20 and 50 togheter,resulting in large dmg and good agro right at start

2-teamate should wait about 10/15 sec before hitting boss letting time to tank to generate enough dmg and threat to keep agro

3-teamate shouldnt spam there tali skills all at once as there doing lots of dmg and may end up in agro steal,they should space them

4-many class have threat decrease skills and there not in ur skills list w/o reason,use them as soon as there ready to use

5-Vg should alternate taunt and mass taunt and they can time them to use 1 of the taunt skills about evry 15 sec

6-many vg dont use bloody strike as there not use to it while grinding solo since it use to much rage but,when bossing rage isnt a problem and bloody strike should be spam,stacking it up 3 time and keep the drain up.

7-Vg should spam shock as its a threat generator skills and not only a debuff that u have to use evry 28 sec to keep it up.

if all those tips r follow tank wont lose agro ever

Tanking is not only about beeing able to take dmg Vg have a lot of tanking skills and using them in the proper way aint that easy at first cause u have a lot to look out for as ur taunt timing,shock and bloody strike debuff,howl,etc.. and on top of that u have to watch boss motion closely to dodge at the right time cause yes many boss can 1 hit a vg if ur to close lvl to that boss lvl or do enough dmg that healer wont be able to keep up and u will eventually die.Also keep an eye on you vigor to use secound wind at the right time.

Vg should be team leader and tell there teamate what to do and not to.

hope this will help : )

[Estes]

Great tanking tips as a vg myself I highly agree with them. Now if only other players in the game would read this. Vg's get critized alot for not tanking "rite". When in fact alot of the high dps players like BW or FM players pull the mobs attention to them. Sometimes it's best to play smart and lead the mob(s) in a circle while pulling thm. This is a good tatic if your a "squishy" :) at least until a VG or RW can pull the mob(s) back to them. But most people who know me in the game or I team with alot don't ever have the arggo problem its mostly the high lv players that really don't understand what needs to be done or what the VG limits are.

[Jita]

VG's seem to be the best single target tank, like a boss.

But for all other aspects of tanking it does seem as if RW's are light years ahead of VG's.

VG cooldowns are to long to keep a group synergy moving from mob group to mob group. Which means the VG loses to much rage to make things go smooth. RW's have shorter cooldowns on threat generating abilities and are able to produce rage at a much higher rate making it easier to use AOE abilities which in turn generate threat on entire groups. So for instances that 5% of the instance which involves fighting a boss, then the VG might do better. If in fact they can hold threat over the dps.

I have to say I am somewhat disappointed at the VG class so far. I am still working on some upgrades and noticing I can take a lot more damage than I could. But in the end there is nothing that I have seen so far that counterpart RW's can't tank with much more ease than I can.

This class has to be the most equipment dependent class in the game. It does seem to gain ground only at level 60 after getting some nice upgrades. But even then there are still threat issues and rage generation issues.

[violentfreak]

Max out increase threat from pet skills if you want to hold aggro
Trick shot produces a large amount of threat
Shock produces threat

When tanking a whole bunch of mobs, goading shout and sweep work well together. Sweep has a rather fast cooldown and as long as you're hitting a lot of mobs, and mobs hit you back, you'll never have to worry about losing rage, spam sweep as much as possible.

Alternate bash and sweep to kill your target and keep mob aggro to you

[Jita]

Max out increase threat from pet skills if you want to hold aggro
Trick shot produces a large amount of threat
Shock produces threat

When tanking a whole bunch of mobs, goading shout and sweep work well together. Sweep has a rather fast cooldown and as long as you're hitting a lot of mobs, and mobs hit you back, you'll never have to worry about losing rage, spam sweep as much as possible.

Alternate bash and sweep to kill your target and keep mob aggro to you

The problem though is that between pulls you lose to much rage to use these abilities and the cooldown of your rage generating abilities is to long.

I really don't think that VG's were built well enough for regular tanking, but focused on for boss tanking. That left us sub-standard when it comes to general tanking.

Look at our taunts. We have one mass taunt which is on an extremely long cooldown. We have one close melee taunt, which is the only one that actually works other than the mass taunt. And one ranged taunt which works only for pulling mobs and doesn't pull threat at all if you are already engaged in combat. On top of that dash is on a long cooldown so grabbing mobs back up that get lose isn't graceful.

VG's are for sure the toughest tank. But also the least desired for regular tanking. We have the reputation of being the most difficult tank to follow into an instance and players know that. RW's by far outnumber us and lets face it for most players needs can do what they need to do.

VG's are a bit to much novelty than necessity.

I still like the class, but I would never recommend it over an RW for a casual player. If you were part of a huge guild like Universal that did the toughest raids etc, then yes. But for anything else, no.

[jasonxx]

STOP hatin on VG lol u are realllllly wrong about aoe tanking and RW being better first of all
RW doesnt have an aoe taunt 1 for VG
SWEEP is epic move and if u are aoe tanking rage isnt a problem 2 for vg
we have two taunts that can be used when "needed" like taunting from healer 3 for VG
falling thunder can basically save entire party in certain raids 4 for VG
VG is awesome 5 for VG
:cool:

and we can only tank so let us do our job please RW can dps we have no range :(

[Jita]

STOP hatin on VG lol u are realllllly wrong about aoe tanking and RW being better first of all
RW doesnt have an aoe taunt 1 for VG
SWEEP is epic move and if u are aoe tanking rage isnt a problem 2 for vg
we have two taunts that can be used when "needed" like taunting from healer 3 for VG
falling thunder can basically save entire party in certain raids 4 for VG
VG is awesome 5 for VG
:cool:

and we can only tank so let us do our job please RW can dps we have no range :(

Check out the RW skills, they have something called Mockery which is a ranged AOE taunt. They also have something called Grasping Claws which isn't a taunt per say but an attack. But this attack generates as much as or more threat than the VG aoe attacks and holds threat on groups of mobs extremely well, its also on an 8 second cool down and only requires 20 rage.

I don't want to dislike this class but every time I tank for groups it just feels inadequate for the job.

I've been working for some time to try to improve my equipment as much as I can but I just don't see it helping in the amounts it should.

[violentfreak]

LOL jason i agree with you, but i think jita's point was

VG's having trouble keeping rage after mobs are cleared
team runs to the next set of mobs and VG rage counter is already empty.

But of course there are things you can do like rush in first, that way the mobs attack you to refill your rage bar.


VG's mass taunt should have no rage cost
Freedom shout should have a shorter cooldown because VG's only have 1 ranged skill(not counting 602 skill), and being spammed with HOLD sucks, you wont be able to do crap. But i guess other people would say "That's the purpose of having hold resist" But then again if you have high hold resist then what's the point of having freedom shout?

[lolwat]

Would you please stop making our class appear worse than it actually is ?
Holding agro on multiple targets is not a problem if people give you a few seconds to position yourself. Positioning, swipe, falling thunder,pretty much every single tali skill would help after that if you still got problems. If shiet goes totally wrong you always have a mass taunt to throw in the mix.

Holding agro on a single target is a piece of cake as vg i hope you got no problems there at least...

[Sasuke-kun]

Honestly for me Vg is better tank :P even tho RW is almost same, not much of difference if not making str RW which for me is fail cuz it will always suck as dps compared to other dps classes and is useless. like 50 str for RW is 50 atk/10dmg which for his skill based dmg isnt much of difference when u could put those 50 to phy and get 100def/25vigor which would help alot. As AK said I would prefer VG at higher end-instances becuz I trust them more idk why ^^ still tank RW (and not str RW lol) should get a chance.

and about worldbosses like dragon,scorp and spider lol. I tank em with my lvl 60 BW with 602 tali without super alot of healers :P like doing dragon with 2 DE 1 MS. and no it's not phy BW lol it's pure str. and on spoon RW/MS and VG/MS team of lvl 60's without DT recipe set nor any durable set done DT F18. so I think it's mainly about how you play and gear with attributes is just 30-40% of success.

[Jita]

Would you please stop making our class appear worse than it actually is ?
Holding agro on multiple targets is not a problem if people give you a few seconds to position yourself. Positioning, swipe, falling thunder,pretty much every single tali skill would help after that if you still got problems. If shiet goes totally wrong you always have a mass taunt to throw in the mix.

Holding agro on a single target is a piece of cake as vg i hope you got no problems there at least...

Truthfully I am finding that even on things like SH2 I am not generating enough threat to keep DPS from pulling scrapheap off me. I usually open with dash, hit all my taunts and tali skill, then shock until its at 3 and keep it constant. Still I find myself trying to chase down scrapheap because some dps is running away and I can't catchup.

Don't get my wrong I love the talisman, love the attacks, not crazy about how low the actual dps is. But I like the design, I just think in practice it needs some tweaking.

[Sasuke-kun]

Truthfully I am finding that even on things like SH2 I am not generating enough threat to keep DPS from pulling scrapheap off me. I usually open with dash, hit all my taunts and tali skill, then shock until its at 3 and keep it constant. Still I find myself trying to chase down scrapheap because some dps is running away and I can't catchup.

Don't get my wrong I love the talisman, love the attacks, not crazy about how low the actual dps is. But I like the design, I just think in practice it needs some tweaking.

maybe ur dps should stop spamming all high dmg skills? or wait for first hp bar to be gone and then start. or maybe ur build and gear isnt that good?

[FeralGirl]

maybe ur dps should stop spamming all high dmg skills?

Yeah, this statement is so true. They need to mix regular skills with high damage skills, or they'll steal aggro. I know if I use my talis skills all at once, I can pull aggro from almost anyone, but if I mix them in with other skills, all is fine. So the people you're teaming with need to learn how to use their skills so they don't pull aggro.

[Jita]

maybe ur build and gear isnt that good?

This is part of the issue although I don't believe any gear items help with threat/rage generation, but more damage of course will.

Gearing on Spoon has been slow and difficult but I am still working on it.

My build is all Physique, last I checked I am #3 on the server in Physique, although my other attributes seem out of whack compared to what they should be, but I think this has a lot to do with gear.

I need to figure out how to get more strength and stamina.

[jasonxx]

Truthfully I am finding that even on things like SH2 I am not generating enough threat to keep DPS from pulling scrapheap off me. I usually open with dash, hit all my taunts and tali skill, then shock until its at 3 and keep it constant. Still I find myself trying to chase down scrapheap because some dps is running away and I can't catchup.

Don't get my wrong I love the talisman, love the attacks, not crazy about how low the actual dps is. But I like the design, I just think in practice it needs some tweaking.

lol u shudnt have to use taunt at start taunt is only to retrieve argo start with dash and shock after second shock ur dps can hit how hard they want and u shud be able to hold argo by alternating taunts

LOL jason i agree with you, but i think jita's point was

VG's having trouble keeping rage after mobs are cleared
team runs to the next set of mobs and VG rage counter is already empty.

But of course there are things you can do like rush in first, that way the mobs attack you to refill your rage bar.


VG's mass taunt should have no rage cost
Freedom shout should have a shorter cooldown because VG's only have 1 ranged skill(not counting 602 skill), and being spammed with HOLD sucks, you wont be able to do crap. But i guess other people would say "That's the purpose of having hold resist" But then again if you have high hold resist then what's the point of having freedom shout?

if u are doing instance y isnt the tank going first -.- that just isnt smart lol, and u dont need rage between battles all initiating skills cost nothing once u are tanking properly ull allways have rage for what u need to do

[violentfreak]

if u are doing instance y isnt the tank going first -.- that just isnt smart lol


But of course there are things you can do like rush in first, that way the mobs attack you to refill your rage bar.




anyways i still think mass taunt should have no rage cost, just like vanguard mounts

[Jita]

anyways i still think mass taunt should have no rage cost, just like vanguard mounts

I agree, and it shouldn't have the low cool down that it does, it makes this class less than optimal for non perfect groups. If you have a large guild and your server is highly populated so you can group easily this probably makes things much easier. Getting groups were people rush ahead, aoe before you even can hit a mob, or don't stop dps'ing when they pull threat, this class isn't equip to handle that. Which in my eyes makes it not an optimal tanking class for general tanking, just my opinion due to the current situation.

I wanted to put together a guide for this class but I can't seem to get the mechanics down to were things work the way they should so I just can't do it. I am considering shelving my VG and just watching to see if anything changes.

[frost3]

I agree, and it shouldn't have the low cool down that it does, it makes this class less than optimal for non perfect groups. If you have a large guild and your server is highly populated so you can group easily this probably makes things much easier. Getting groups were people rush ahead, aoe before you even can hit a mob, or don't stop dps'ing when they pull threat, this class isn't equip to handle that. Which in my eyes makes it not an optimal tanking class for general tanking, just my opinion due to the current situation.

I wanted to put together a guide for this class but I can't seem to get the mechanics down to were things work the way they should so I just can't do it. I am considering shelving my VG and just watching to see if anything changes.
I can help with the guide and ect... since I am playing on hare

[lolwat]

unless you are playing with complete morons VGs are perfectly fine for pve and very enjoyable in pvp.
Please do not try to get a random unneeded change to the class. Practice more, try out new things. By level 60 people should learn what to do and what not to do ... If one doesnt know how to play his class he shouldnt blame the game itself.

[Jita]

unless you are playing with complete morons VGs are perfectly fine for pve and very enjoyable in pvp.
Please do not try to get a random unneeded change to the class. Practice more, try out new things. By level 60 people should learn what to do and what not to do ... If one doesnt know how to play his class he shouldnt blame the game itself.

It's unfortunate that you don't understand that more threat and more rage for VGs coupled with shorter taunt times would in fact improve the class. I understand that some VGs don't get the chance to group with real world groups or venture outside of their comfort zones. Don't be ashamed to fear changes, lots of people do, your not outside the norm. :D

[lolwat]

Im telling you the class doesnt need changes and its fine as it is. Stop trying to whine unneeded changes into existence and learn to use your skills, kkthxbb.
inb4 more whine - highest level vg on incon

[Jita]

Im telling you the class doesnt need changes and its fine as it is. Stop trying to whine unneeded changes into existence and learn to use your skills, kkthxbb.
inb4 more whine - highest level vg on incon

It's good to have an opinion, the above being yours. Stating it as if it is fact doesn't give it any more validity. Being the highest level VG on the server doesn't mean a thing, apply this logic to any of the classes and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Thanks for stating your opinion for everyone. I was going to review that PVP video of yourself that was posted by a fan of yours for some pointers in fact, although I don't recall you using any of the attacks in it. I could be wrong though I will take another look at it just to be sure. :D

[Sasuke-kun]

VG is just awesome like it is , go practice playing more maybe? go try DT? and dont tell me it's impossible for lvl 60 VG cuz lvl 59 done it... I'ts not game fault nor your class skills fault that ppl you play with cant limit their dps. go blame them instead of whining here ^^

[lolwat]

It's good to have an opinion, the above being yours. Stating it as if it is fact doesn't give it any more validity. Being the highest level VG on the server doesn't mean a thing, apply this logic to any of the classes and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Thanks for stating your opinion for everyone. I was going to review that PVP video of yourself that was posted by a fan of yours for some pointers in fact, although I don't recall you using any of the attacks in it. I could be wrong though I will take another look at it just to be sure. :D

hmm ? pvp video starring me ? how did i miss that o_O

[Jita]

VG is just awesome like it is , go practice playing more maybe? go try DT? and dont tell me it's impossible for lvl 60 VG cuz lvl 59 done it... I'ts not game fault nor your class skills fault that ppl you play with cant limit their dps. go blame them instead of whining here ^^

Thanks for the advice although I was hoping to hear some actual advice from someone who has a VG :D

Thanks for all the advice on tips everyone, this thread is tapped out and off topic now, sorry for that.

-unsubscribing from this thread

[Sasuke-kun]

but I have lvl 50 VG ^.^ and I know alot about VG combos etc, go ask our guild VG's why are they so good in pvp xD

also you can get more threat with sacred pets